Dark Souls 1 Design Works interview conducted by Famitsu's Kadoman Otsuka featuring the director Hidetaka Miyazaki and a number of artists who worked on the game: Hiroshi Nakamura, Masanori Waragai, Daisuke Satake and Mai Hatsuyama.
General Design Process
Otsuka: Firstly I would like to ask Mr. Miyazaki a little about the general design process.
Miyazaki: We pursued two main avenues when designing Dark Souls: in the initial concept stages I gave each of the artists a few simple "image words" to use as a starting point and then they were free to develop these in whatever way they wished. We then took the images we liked, adjusted them where necessary and used them to begin shaping the world. For example the Gaping Dragon, Egg Carrier and Gravelord Nito all emerged during this stage and made it almost unchanged into the final game.
In cases where I had a clearer idea of what I wanted, the design process was slightly different. For example, this is going to be used in this place to perform this function or, the area is designed in this way so it must adhere to these conditions, for example the mimic and the gargoyles. Regardless of which design process was used, rather than to appoint a person to take charge of each concept, I took the designs and talked them over with each of the artists and developed them in that way.
Otsuka: With all this freedom in the design process and the concept artists differing styles, was there a need to unify all the designs?
Miyazaki: I suppose there was, but as I said before I took charge over all the designs and was ultimately responsible for their direction, and since they all went through me I suppose there was some degree of unification.
Having said that, I tried to bring out all the artists' individual styles because I think working closely with each designer to develop their ideas whilst still embracing their personal style creates a much richer, organic feeling world in the end. As I mentioned earlier, each artist began with just a few simple "image words" and developed their designs from that. The words which inspired each of their designs and the way they chose to use them was very different. Some found that relatively philosophical words gave them ideas while some used them to develop a character's back story. Each collaboration was different and because of that, each was stimulating in its own way. I think this is the main reason that the world of Dark Souls turned out as well as it did.
There was need for some direction, so in Dark Souls there were three main sections or themes:
- the image of Gods and knights centered around Anor Londo
- Lost Izalith and the theme of Chaos, fire and demons
- and Gravelord Nito and the image of death and decay
I suppose you could also add to that the image of the ancient dragons. These themes, along with utilising the artists' personal styles, formed the basis of the Dark Souls design principle. In contrast to most art teams, we didn't have our artists concentrating on a specific section, instead all the artists contributed to all areas.
Otsuka: So for example, Anor Londo wasn't created by a single artist?
Miyazaki: Not quite: we didn't have a single designer making maps, characters or equipment, but we did have separate people in charge of each of the game's areas. I believe Mr. Waragai was responsible for Anor Londo.
Waragai: Yes, I was, but before we started developing the look of the area, we first decided on the general layout and then we worked together with the 3D artist. I set out designing the main features such as the statues and the revolving elevator.
Miyazaki: This is actually how most of the areas were constructed. The map design was really what dictated everything else, once we determined what needed to happen in each area we would immediately draw up a rough map, then once the basic layout of the area was decided, we'd work on the finer details. Through the rough map I was able to communicate the requirements, structure and appearance of an area to the artists, and have them develop those ideas through collaborating with one another. I'm never satisfied with design works that simply follows the design brief so I often requested that the artists and designers add some of their own ideas. I believe that these ideas can enrich the area, if not the entire game, although this can lead to more work of course.
Otsuka: So you had a team of one artist/designer and one 3D artist working on each area, and then it fell to you to make the final decisions?
Miyazaki: Yes, but each of the areas had its own feel or tone as far as art direction was concerned. For an area like Blight Town for example, we found that once we decided on the general direction and gathered appropriate reference materials, there wasn't really a need to spend too much time developing the look of the area, it just came together. However in areas which were composed of more traditional architecture, we had to spend a lot of time working on the finer details. There weren't a huge amount of artists on the team so it was a case of moving people to where they would be of most use.
Anor Londo for instance is one of the most complicated areas in the game in terms of architecture, and as the mid-way point of the game it's also a very important area, so we spent a great deal of time working on it. After ringing the bells and overcoming the traps of Sen's Fortress I really wanted to player to feel "Yes! I've made it!"
Otsuka: It seems that your direction was at times quite abstract
Miyazaki: According to the artists, it was, but I believe that if your instructions are too specific, the designs you get will be somewhat devoid of creativity, so I try to give out just the most basic, essential information before handing it over to the artists' imaginations, which inevitable eclipses my own. My initial instructions are certainly abstract. For example, when designing equipment I'd simply say "make something you can trust with your life on the battlefield", or "make something that has enchantments to protect you". I think the artists probably didn't know what I was talking about half the time.
Waragai: That's true.
Miyazaki: I'm sorry. Of course, If I don't get what I want, I start giving more specific descriptions and I might even start drawing things on the whiteboard, but even then I'd never go so far as to say "it has to be this colour or this shape", I don't want the designers to become my tools. It doesn't always go as I want, but I think that's probably due to me not getting the best out of the artists, and this is something I want to get better at in the future.
Otsuka: It's similar when I put a book together, I understand how you feel.
Miyazaki: With this game, some fantastic images came from the initial concept stage, for example Lautrec's "Armour of Favour". If we had simply concentrated on what was required rather than trying to experiment, I don't think something like this would have been created. In order to get this from my designers, I tried talking to them about all sorts of things, for example I spoke at length with Nakamura about philosophy.
Waragai: You spoke about space and stuff, too, right?
Miyazaki: Oh yeah, especially at the beginning. About the world, life and death, and with regards to the game world, the meaning of fire and role of the Four Kings. By talking like this with the artists I found that it not only helped them to develop their ideas, but it really helped me shape my idea of the world I wanted to create. I also tried hard not to be predictable or conservative. Of course, since we decided on a fantasy setting, we couldn't stray too far from that, but we had to be careful not to just take the easy route, or the world would become boring. I really tried hard to maintain this.
Otsuka: Is there anything in particular you tried to avoid?
Miyazaki: You may not believe me, but I always tried to maintain a certain level of refinement and elegance in all designs. I often told the artists that muddy or messy is definitely not good. I think this carries through the entire game. If you asked me to describe what this "elegance" is… well, I think you just have to look at the designs and judge for yourself, but it really is one of the most important factors in everything I oversee.
Waragai: I remember you said that to me when I was working on the undead dragon. Originally, it was covered with maggots, but you told me that instead I needed to try and capture the sadness of this great creature as it marches towards extinction.
Miyazaki: As I said before, everything had its particular shade or tone; Blighttown, for example is the rawest, most disgusting area in the game, but looking at the area as a whole, I wanted it to both possess a deep sadness and feel bitterly cold, that's the atmosphere I tried to build on. You could say I that have a habit of working in this way, and I think you can really see that in Dark Souls' art direction.
Otsuka: Next, I'd like to talk about each of the areas in the game in a little more detail. I suppose we should start at the beginning in the Undead Asylum.
Waragai: I was in charge of the Undead Asylum, but in was actually the last thing I drew.
Miyazaki: It may sound strange, but it's quite common for the tutorial to be the last thing to be integrated. It's much easier to design it once you know what needs to be communicated, and found the best to explain it to the player. I remember saying that the Undead Asylum should take Dark Souls' dark fantasy aesthetic and just distill that to it's purest essence. We began with the image of a gloomy basement cell and the stone architecture and also incorporated that cold, sad atmosphere I mentioned previously. Once we decided on this direction, the area came together fairly easily. In many ways, it fell directly in the center of designs we had been working on up until that point…
Firelink Shrine and the Undead Burg
Otsuka: Next I'd like to ask about a very important area, the Firelink shrine.
Miyazaki: Firelink Shrine was Mr Daisuke Satake's, wasn't it?
Satake: Yes. From what I remember, it was originally designed as a water temple, but as work on the game progressed and the image of kindling and fire became more prominent, the water gradually dried up.
Miyazaki: Yes, that's right. Firelink Shrine serves as the hub for the game so I initially wanted it to be a very healing place with water, greenery, soft light and subtle music, and while that never really changed, as Mr. Satake said, factors like the introduction of kindling and Frampt's arrival later in the game meant that the water gradually disappeared from the area. We realised that when Frampt appears, he bursts through the ground, so the water that used to fill that area would all have to drain away…
The other thing is the bonfire placement. It use to be in a different location, the place it's in now used to be a small pond. We had problems with the original placement because the ground wasn't flat and it interfered with the player's sitting animation, so we had to search for a level location to move the bonfire to and that's were it stayed… but of course you can't have a bonfire in the middle of a pond, that water had to go, too.
Waragai: It feels like a place everyone will gather, so I think this location actually worked really well.
Miyazaki: Yes, I had an image of people gathered around the bonfire from the very beginning. Getting back to the subject, Firelink Shrine was one of the first places we designed. It's a small area but it connects to many different places and has many hidden spots. It was a very enjoyable location to create.
Satake: It was made to connect with areas in every direction. In fact, we had to remove some routes in the final game, as well as some other things. Initially Priscilla was the heroine of the story and she was going to be there, for example.
Miyazaki: That's not really something I want to talk about just yet….
Otsuka: Priscilla is certainly the most beautiful character in the game.
Miyazaki: Thank you. She was the heroine of the story at one point, so I'm glad you think so. Moving on to the Endead Burg: we never really spent much time working on the look of the area. It was the first map we created and the large bridge, the church and the other structures were already planned out by the 3D artist who was in charge of the area. As the lead artist on the project, he had already decided exactly how he wanted these things to look down to the smallest detail, even the levers and statues.
Otsuka: Next I'd like to ask about Sen's Fortress…
Miyazaki: Sen's Fortress and Anor Londo were both overseen by Mr. Waragai. As for me, I had a definite visual image right from the beginning and a concept behind the area i.e. the trial to reach Anor Londo, full of deadly traps. The designers had real trouble with this area, I seem to remember. We spent a long time on the rough map.
Waragai: The image of a trap road was fairly straightforward. The pendulums, rolling boulders and other major traps were all there from the start. In fact, we almost tried hard to make them obvious and create things that screamed "trap!".
Miyazaki: It's almost comical how obvious they are, but I think things like that are all part of Dark Souls' appeal. Personally I love the stone launcher, the way it endlessly fires the boulders, and the strange complex contraption build to achieve this simple action. It's things like this really add a sense of intrigue to the Dark Souls world. In terms of achieving the original design aims, I think the area works really well.
Satake: I really like the way the stairs are worn away where the boulders roll down.
Waragai: I think that was Miyazaki's idea.
Miyazaki: Was it?
Waragai: Yes, the idea was that the worn steps might give players a warning as to the dangers ahead.
Miyazaki: I see, although I doubt people would be able to pick up that on that small detail, especially on their first time through. Perhaps the second time, it will serve to remind them.
Waragai: Diligent people will notice I think, by that point you've already seen several large boulders.
Miyazaki: I'm glad we were able to create a design that really incorporated all of our ideas.
Otsuka: Next up is Anor Londo
Miyazaki: There was a lot I wanted to fit into Anor Londo. As I mentioned before, I wanted it to feel like a reward after finishing Sen's Fortress, but I also wanted it to be an area with no clear road, to have the player walk in places that you wouldn't normally walk, such as the buttresses. Then there was also the image of the setting sun, and the way the area changes once night falls. I really like the way your eye is drawn to the different features like the revolving staircase elevator.
Waragai: That was Nakamura's idea, I remember him saying "life is like climbing a great spiral"…
Miyazaki: Nakamura comes up with some strange things, doesn't he? I mean that in the best possible way, of course! I think this worked out really well, there are several spirals in the area and I'm glad that we were able to incorporate that idea.
Otsuka: Did you use anything for reference when designing Anor Londo?
Waragai: We had the image of walking on buttresses from the start, so that, I suppose. Their actual purpose is to support the walls so they can build them even higher, but when I visited the cathedral in Milan, I walked beneath the buttresses and I thought, "how fun it would be to walk on them"…
Miyazaki: There was one more thing I wanted to achieve with Anor Londo; the last game I directed, Demon's Souls, was based in the early middle ages so it was extremely difficult to gather reference materials for the area designs. Dark Souls is based in a later time period so with Anor Londo, I saw a chance to create an area that felt more cohesive and full of the kind of detail that we couldn't achieve in Demon's Souls.
Otsuka: How about The Duke's Archives and the Crystal Caves? The library looks a little like…
Miyazaki: Yes, the revolving stairs are from Harry Potter, aren't they? Personally I was really interested in creating a library or archive, but if I'm being honest, I would have liked to spend a little more time on some aspects of area.
New Londo Ruins
Otsuka: How about New Londo Ruins?
Miyazaki: We tried a slightly different approach with the New Londo ruins, closely basing it on existing architecture, in this case Mont Saint-Michel in Normandy, France. Of course, it's not exactly the same, but if you compare the two, the similarities are obvious.
Very much like creating the cities in Armored Core, it's much easier for the planners, designers and 3D artists to start with references from real life than to start from scratch. Real things contain such a mixture of influences, ideas and such an abundance of information, that I wanted to try using this technique in Dark Souls. Of course, some things worked out better than others, but I think in the end we created something that wouldn't have been possible if we started from zero. Even with the areas that didn't turn out as I'd hoped, it was a pretty successful experiment. Looking at it against the other areas, I think the difference is actually fairly obvious. But since we used this different approach for this area it was the last area the artists worked on.
Waragai: Yes. While I was in charge of New Londo, the fact that it was based so heavily on a real world location meant that there wasn't actually a great deal of work to be done. All but the finest details were already in place.
The Depths and Blighttown
Otsuka: Well then, moving on to the Depths and Blight Town…
Miyazaki: The depths were based around the image of an underground aqueduct, but its aesthetics are very similar to that of the Undead Burg. It also shared the same lead artist so the two areas really fit well together.
As for Blighttown, I started with a number of images that I wanted to incorporate, but due to the complexity of the area, it would have been difficult to try and design all at once, so instead we began with large features like the water wheel elevator and, with the designers and artists, gradually built the area up from there.
Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith
Otsuka: Moving even further down to the Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith: they have a different feel to the previous areas, don't they?
Miyazaki: I mentioned previously that Dark Souls was divided into three main themes. The demons are all based around the idea of Chaos, but we had to think long and hard about how to convey that image in a map. We decided on an oriental theme. I'm worried people may take this the wrong way but oriental things possess a kind of chaos, or to put it differently, they lack a kind of peace or order and that's what I wanted to capture. The best example of this is found at Angkor Wat in Cambodia and in the areas surrounding it, where East and West Asia meet.
Catacombs and the Tomb of the Giants
Otsuka: How about the Catacombs and the Tomb of the Giants?
Miyazaki: The Catacombs and the Tomb of the Giants have a similar atmosphere to that of Blighttown but both contain a great many more man-made objects, which meant more work for the artists. In our team, the 3D artists would sometimes be called upon to do work more akin to that of a traditional artist, because we tried to utilise their skills as much as we possible. As I said before we don't have many artists to work with and just throwing more people at something doesn't guarantee a better result.
Great Hollow and Ash Lake
Otsuka: On to the Great Hollow and Ash lake…
Miyazaki: These two areas were entirely created by the designers, with little to no concept work. I had a clear image of both areas from the beginning and as work progressed, I continued to modify that to keep up with the other areas we were creating. Most of the work was done directly from the rough map, but there is also more than a little Avatar in there I think. Of course, if the area hadn't have come together, I'd have had the artists create some concept art, but in the end it wasn't needed.
Painted World of Ariamis
Otsuka: Now, a very interesting area: the Painted World of Ariamis…
Miyazaki: We drew a great deal of concept art for the Painted World. It was actually based on the map used in the Dark Souls prototype. Of course, the prototype is your chance to really get your vision for the game across so we spent a lot of time on the area. So much, that I really wanted to use it in the full game but I couldn't find a way to make it fit with the other areas. In the end I cheated and put it in the Painted World.
Waragai: It's the only area with snow so it would be hard to put it anywhere else.
Miyazaki: Yes. It may sound like a poor solution, but I actually had an image for the Painted World from the start, I'm just happy I was able to combine that image and the prototype map.
Otsuka: It was here you decided to put the former heroine Priscilla, wasn't it?
Miyazaki: Yes. I think she works well here, she's kind of snow-coloured after all…. But I also think the Painted World is place where someone who's being chased might go to escape, and she fits that description.
Waragai: Like she's been chased away from her natural place?
Miyazaki: Yes, although "natural place" means something slightly different in this case.
Otsuka: I think it's a really unique area, I remember before travelling there I was excited to see what would happen.
Miyazaki: Thank you. I'm very happy with the area overall. It was the important first map we made and I think I was able to incorporate the new ideas I had while not taking anything away from the original design of the area. When collaborating with the team I often come up with ideas, and I enjoy trying to fit them in as we develop the world. Of course, I also have to be careful not to break anything. I think this method of continuous improvement can really help add to the atmosphere of an area, in fact we also used this method on the last game I worked on, Demon's Souls, the problem is that there is a tendency to overproduce things and before you know it, the project can spiral out of control and work can slow down.
I suppose I'm getting slightly off-topic so I will stop there, but it's something I want to work on in the future.
NPCs and Bosses
Big Hat Logan
Otsuka: Now that we've covered the maps, I'd like to ask about the NPCs. There certainly are a lot of memorable characters in the game.
Miyazaki: Thank you very much, we spend a lot of time on them, so I'm happy to hear you say that.
Waragai: Personally, I really like Big Hat Logan.
Miyazaki: That was one of (Mai) Hatsuyama's designs, wasn't it?
Hatsuyama: Yes, it was… but I have to ask, why did you make him naked?
Miyazaki: Huh? I made him naked?
Waragai: Haha, I'm sure it was your idea, Miyazaki.
Miyazaki: I suppose it was… As to why I made him naked, I wanted to show that the character had found enlightenment but unfortunately the models in Dark Souls weren't built with a wide range of emotional expressions, so as I was thinking about how to overcome this problem, for some reason, I came up with the idea of making him naked…
It's Logan's goal to gain the power of the ancient dragons, so in order to do this, I had an image of him casting off his human clothes. It's similar to using the Dragon Head or Torso Stone, you have to remove your equipment. Of course there are gameplay reasons for this too, but there was also this image of the player leaving something of their humanity behind. Similarly, Logan removing his clothes is his attempt to bring himself closer to Seath in some way. Although I couldn't take his hat off because no one would recognise him, but personally I like to think that unlike the followers of the path of the Dragon, Logan sought to gain the dragons power while retaining his pride as a human.
Hatsuyama: I drew a lot of designs for underwear so I'm a little disappointed he didn't emerge wearing one of those instead.
Miyazaki: In his underwear… If we had done that I'm not sure it would have been taken in the way I wanted. But I also really like Logan as a character, I spent a good amount of time on the design. He's a wise man or a sage but I really wanted to make him unique so I had quite a few designs made. Once we arrived on the idea of his big hat, the design came together, but that wasn't there from the start and only emerged through continual revisions.
Hataysuma: At first I held back thinking, "is it really okay to make his hat that big?" but as time went on, it gradually got bigger and bigger until…
Miyazaki: Yes, we went through that process many times.
Hatsuyama: I thought he'd turn into a mushroom, but I was told that it wasn't an issue, so I just went ahead and did it.
Satake: Turn into a mushroom… I like that.
Hatsuyama: Artistically speaking, I made his hat far too big, you can't actually see his face anymore.
Miyazaki: I think it turned into a good silhouette in the end, he looks like someone who doesn't like other people… I can empathise with that, haha.
Hatsuyama: Can I ask aboutGwynevere, because compared to the other female charters she's very different, almost glamorous.
Miyazaki: You don't like the design?
Hatsuyama: No, I just wanted to know what the original idea behind her was.
Otsuka: As a fan of the character, I'd be interested to hear that too.
Miyazaki: The truth is that I just wanted to make a really big woman. I think it was a Fujiko F. Fujio manga, (Yasuragi no Yakata, literally Tranquil Mansion) in which there was a company president who joins an exclusive club to escape his stressful work life, and there's this giant woman who takes care of the club members, almost like a mother… don't you think that's just a perfect situation? A giant, considerate, caring woman. The kind we all lost when we grew up; that's what I wanted to make. Originally I wanted to put a mouth in the palm of her hand and we made all of the animations, but it didn't make it into the final game. Talking of glamour, her breasts have nothing to do with me, they happened without my knowledge. It's all the artist's fault. I think I mentioned it earlier but I always seek a certain refinement in all my designs.
Miyazaki: Yes, but the artist had such a happy look on his face, I didn't have the heart to stop him.
Andre of Astora
Otsuka: Earlier we were talking about Crossbreed Pricilla, but are there any other characters whose role changed dramatically as development progressed?
Miyazaki: Oh, there are many, for example Andre of Astora. Originally he played a far more important role in the story.
Satake: Andre is no longer related to Gwyn, is he?
Miyazaki: Yes, we took that out. He was originally a descendant of Gwyn whose task was to protect a door within the Firelink Shrine. In the end, he was going to push aside the goddess statue to let the player progress, but as development progressed, he became just a simple blacksmith.
Waragai: But there are still those statues that look like him around the game world, aren't there?
Miyazaki: Yes, they are, but I don't think they are related, they're simply vessels which hold the embers.
Otsuka: Next I'd like to ask about the enemy characters, starting with bosses…
Miyazaki: There are too many to talk about all of them, so why don't we have the artists talk about their favourite designs?
Waragai: I'm afraid I didn't really work too much on the enemy designs.
Hatsuyama: Really? How about Priscilla?
Miyazaki: Priscilla was designed out-of-house. I had a pretty clear image of what I wanted for the character so I trusted it to a separate art studio.
Waragai: From my designs… I suppose Gravelord Nito…
Miyazaki: I remember all the trouble we went through naming the character. Waragai thought my original name for the character was too sad. Dark Souls was his first job as an art designer and Nito was his first design so I felt I should respect his wishes. I changed the name slightly and I actually think the new name fits the character much better. Nito was originally created as the boss for the prototype map, and because of that, we tried out a huge range of different effects. There was constantly discussion about what colour he should be and how he should look.
Waragai: He was originally on fire, wasn't he?
Miyazaki: Yes, Nito is in the pre-rendered intro, but it's a really intricate design so it was extremely difficult to communicate what I wanted to the animators. The character had to be cloaked in shadow, shrouded in a deathly aura, but that's not easy to get across and their first attempt wasn't what I wanted at all.
Waragai: It can be difficult to explain how you want the material to behave to the animators can't it, the feel and the weight of something isn't easy to put into words.
Miyazaki: Yes, exactly. I had a good idea of how I want the materials to move in the pre-rendered scenes, but actually putting it in a way that was easy to understand was extremely difficult. No matter how many times you say "he's always surrounded by an aura" he would just come back covered in smoke. In the end I told them to make it more like cloth. Since he was selected to be in the intro we had a very difficult time with the character, but the fact that he was chosen shows how strong the initial design was.
Miyazaki: Next is Mr. Nakamura, isn't it?
Nakamura: Right from the initial concept stages, when we were still working from key words like "ancient dragon", "chaos demon" and "undead" I thought long and hard about how to create something fresh and new for the people who played Demon's Souls.
Miyazaki: The demon in the Uundead Asylum, the Taurus and Capra demons - in fact, the majority of the demon enemies were designed by Mr. Nakamura. I really love all of his designs, they're simple but not predictable. Exactly the kind of creatures that I imagined populating the Dark Souls world. They're just fantastic.
I'm also a huge fan of the Gaping Dragon. It's a little different from the other dragons in the world, it's part of an ancient race of mineral based life forms, existing since long before the emergence of mankind, yet, despite its superiority over us, its time has passed, and it finds itself alone in the world, the last of its race forced to survive in any way it can. As to what triggered this change… well, the emergence of life corrupted it, it was warped by emotion and desire…
When we were initially discussing the design, we came up with the theme of greed. After that, Mr. Nakamura produced the design remarkably quickly. You would expect designs based around this theme to be either fat or have a huge mouth, but that's a little too predictable. When I saw the design I was genuinely surprised and absolutely delighted.
Otsuka: It just ate and ate so much that he turned out like this?
Nakamura: Yes, it was completely consumed by the desire to eat, so much that it began to adapt and the parts of its body began to retrogress. It no longer eats with its mouth but takes food directly into its body, but it had to change this way in order to survive. Aside from eating its lost any faculties it may have once possessed and has to survive in this desolate, harsh environment by eating anything it can. It simply did what it had to, to continue to exist.
Miyazaki: You can almost imagine it saying things like "you're too far away", "get over here, I want to eat you". Of course, these words never came up in the design process as I never imagined the creature would develop in this way, but I think it's a really incredible design. As I said before I love working together with the artists, I really think it benefits both of us. In fact I'd go so far as to say that it's my favourite part of the job.
Nakamura: Before we move on, I'd like to ask you about the Demon enemies I designed, specifically those designs which incorporate some type of symbolism. I know that you dislike designs which are too easy or obvious, but spending too much time trying to force symbolism into designs can be just as damaging to the development of the world. So I just wanted to know how you feel about the demon enemies overall.
Miyazaki: I think you're thinking too much of it. To put it plainly, I'm delighted with your designs.
It can be difficult to achieve the right balance of symbolism in designs. It's true that I dislike designs which are too obvious but there are times when I feel a design lacks a certain something. At times like this I have been known to look through the reference materials, pick out things I like and simply stick them on. The Capra Demon's head is an example of this, it gives a sense of ceremony and long-held tradition, which in turn hints at a developed culture. Details such as this can really improve designs by giving them a significance not present at first sight. Symbols contain inherent meaning, they wouldn't be symbols if they didn't, but it's difficult to add new meaning to that symbol. So I think this can be a really powerful weapon for the artists. Anyway, getting back to your question, I think you did a fantastic job.
Nakamura: I'm relieved to hear you say that.
Miyazaki: Really? I wish you wouldn't talk like that, it's almost like you're scared of me.
Otsuka: What were you in charge of, Ms. Hatsuyama?
Hatsuyama: The Black Knights and the Gargoyles.
Miyazaki: She joined us slightly later in the project, when we'd already finished the initial concept stage, so I had her work on those designs which had to adhere to a more rigid set of conditions. As Ms. Hatsuyama just said, the Gargoyles where one of those designs. This enemy would appear just before you rung the bell in the Bell Tower; this much was decided but I couldn't get a clear image for the creature. Originally the centipede demon from Izalith was here, but looking at the route you take through the opening stages of the game, to Sen's Fortress and Anor Londo and beyond, it didn't really fit. It's also the first large boss enemy you face so I wanted something a little more typical. So since it's a church and we have a relatively open space, we decided on gargoyles. It was one of your first designs, wasn't it, Ms. Hatsuyama?
Hatsuyama: I think it was the second design I worked on.
Miyazaki: This was my first time working together with Ms. Hatsuyama, so I wanted to begin designing something that was relatively orthodox, and use the opportunity to get us thinking on the same wavelength, unite our ideas of fantasy if you will. I think that was my plan… but it took quite a while to get right.
Hatsuyama: I'm very sorry.
Miyazaki: It turned out well thought. It was even featured in the commercials!
Hatsuyama: I was so happy!
Miyazaki: I remember we talked about a great many things, how to make the creature fit in, about its heavy, thick armour and its level of technological advancement. I don't really remember what I said, but looking back I think I bombarded you with too much at once.
Hatsuyama: No, not at all, I think you pointed out a lot of useful things, I think it really took me to places I wouldn't have gone to before.
Miyazaki: Thank you for saying that.
Gwyn, Lord of Sunlight and Cinder
Otsuka: What about Mr. Satake?
Satake: I don't really have to speak, do I?
Miyazaki: What are you saying! Let's talk, you were in charge of the last boss Gwyn Lord of Cinder, how was that?
Satake: Well, we had a good initial image for Gwyn so I remember it going relatively smoothly. His armour, or more accurately his clothing needed some work but other than that… We simply continued to adjust the design, checking it in-game as we went.
Miyazaki: We wanted his clothing to look ancient, he is an old king after all. I researched a lot of old clothing but I couldn't really find anything that looked cool. Short pants for example wouldn't create the image we wanted for the character. I'm happy with the final design though.
Satake: Yes, as design progressed he really turned into the type of king who would fight at the head of his troops.
Miyazaki: Although as far as the game is concerned I think we could have done a little more with the character. He's the last boss and the concept of the character was to have the player use all the skills they'd developed throughout the game. I wanted them to have to use everything they've learned in order to beat him. The reason that he uses such a simple single sword fighting style stems from this concept, but in the end we ended up taking a different direction.
Waragai: Parry, parry, parry.
Satake: Yup parry, parry.
Miyazaki: That's the truth… I regret that the fight turned out this way… Of course there are other designs that I really like, the Iron Golem for example, is a great, large powerful enemy.
Otsuka: Personally I'd really like to know more about the Ceaseless Discharge.
Miyazaki: As with Priscilla, I had a pretty clear image of how I wanted the character to look and behave so I entrusted his design to an out-of-house artist.
All demons are born from the fire of chaos, but he was the first, born so long ago, when the fire wasn't yet stable. He possesses it, but he can't control it and it burns him constantly. Despite his size, he's actually the youngest of Izalith's children, he stands gazing up at the ruins where his sisters live. The only source of comfort in his pitiful, painful existence is the belief that they are watching over him.
Waragi: Do you think people would have been able to guess all that simply by looking at the boss room?
Miyazaki: I don't think so. There are a huge number of things, that, while present in the game, we make no attempt to explain to the player, and many more that they simply have no way of finding out. The Ceaseless Discharge's story is just one of these. I recall the main difficulty designing the character was trying to get across that sense of sadness. People just couldn't see past the fact that he's a flaming giant.
Satake: Poor guy, everyone just wanted to attack him.
Miyazaki: It's not difficult to see why, but simply giving him a melancholic expression or making him weep would have been taking it too far in the opposite direction. It was a very difficult balance to achieve.
Otsuka: So in a way, by killing the him, you are doing him a kindness?
Miyazaki: Probably, relief from his pain at last… Although it's extremely difficult and I doubt anyone will ever discover it, I seem to recall there being a way to progress through the game without killing him, although in truth, it's more of an exploit than a valid method.
Ornstein and Smough
Waragai: I really like Ornstein and Smough.
Miyazaki: Those were both Mr. Nakamura's designs. I personally really like Smough's armour.
Nakamura: He was the first thing I designed.
Miyazaki: Smough came form the initial concept stages, while Ornstein was introduced much later. I remember the Channeller's design was put forward around the same time as Smough's and we all took to referring to them as the four knights; Knights C and D, if I remember correctly. I hoped that by doing this, it would ensure that Knights A and B were implemented.
In the end they never were, the four knights disappeared and the design work for knights A and B was transferred to other characters like Ornstein and Artorias. The Channeller was given a different role, so that left Smough. I'm extremely fond of the design so I wanted to do something special, turn him from one of four knights into something almost… heretical.
I'm sure made the designers and programmers really angry because I forced them to make his armour equippable.
Otsuka: You really were fond of him, weren't you?
Miyazaki: He offers a substantial challenge for the player, too, doesn't he?
Otsuka: I thought the strongest boss in the game was probably the Capra Demon.
Waragai: For me it's undoubtedly the fight with Ornstein.
Miyazaki: There's something unnatural about Smough's armour, it doesn't look like something that would have been created by a normal, sane person, I think that's what I like about it. There was a rumor that we were hunting players who bought the game early. I wasn't us, but whoever it was, they were wearing Smough's armour and I remember thinking how fitting it was.
Chaos Witch Quelaag
Otsuka: How about Chaos Witch Quelaag?
Miyazaki: Quelaag was another character I always had a pretty clear image of. The truth is, there is an old board game called Dragon Pass which I really love, and in the game there is a special unit called the Crag Spider. All it is, is a tiny chip with the name, parameters and a small silhouette, but for some reason it really stuck with me. Although she developed into something quite different, that's where the inspiration for the character came from. It's not just Dragon Pass, I love all old tabletop games and game books, my copies of Titan and Out of the Pit remain some of my most treasured possessions.
Satake: When he's having difficulty trying to explain something, he would often take out an old book, point to something and say "like this!"
Miyazaki: It was my first foray into fantasy so it holds a special place in my heart… but getting back to Quelaag, she became strangely popular, perhaps it has something to do with her chest…
Waragai: Ah, her introduction cinematic.
Miyazaki: I wonder… Personally - this is also the case with the Ceaseless Discharge - I'm not entirely happy with the way she turned out, I think we could have improved both their behaviour and the way they are introduced to the player.
Waragai: She spoke at one point, didn't she?
Miyazaki: Yes, she did, and, perhaps with a better script, we could have made it work, but I felt like the character lost something, so we quickly took it out. She's actually one of the few completely silent characters.
Bed of Chaos
Otsuka: Which boss gave you the most trouble?
Miyazaki: Who gave me the most trouble… Hmm…
Nakamura: All of them, right?
Miyazaki: That's the truth, there were quite a few, when deadlines were closing in and I couldn't get a good mental image of what I wanted but we had to settle on something. Those situations were the hardest because I knew something was wrong, but couldn't express what I wanted and couldn't give a solution. That was difficult, both for me and for the artists I was working with. I suppose the Bed of Chaos is the principal example of this.
Otsuka: It seems you designed King Izalith at one point too, what was that like?
Miyazaki: Ah yes, evidence of the twists and turns we went through.
Waragai: Initially he was going to be the boss of the area, the Bed of Chaos lying sprawled on the floor and waves its hands about but he was a king sitting on his throne…
Miyazaki: That's right. We really had trouble with that. I've already talked about quite a few aspects of the game I'm not entirely happy with, but I'd have to say that my greatest regret is the Bed of Chaos. The artists and designers worked extremely hard and came up with some fantastic ideas, but it exposed a real problem in our production method. We had no way to find a common goal and work towards it when things went wrong. It's definitely something I want to correct in the future.
Otsuka: Well now that we've talked about the bosses, I'd like to talk a bit about the normal enemies.
Hatsuyama: I want to ask about the black knights. I remember originally they were going to wander the world, why was it that you decided to change that?
Miyazaki: We've been thinking about introducing wandering enemies since Demon's Souls, then it was skeletons and grim reapers… but for whatever reason we've yet to go through with it. The Black Knights' behaviour was changed slightly, but their role never was. Since they were burned by Gwyn's linking the flame, they wander the land. As far as design goes, there were a number of themes I wanted to incorporate. I wanted to make them really detailed models so we gathered a huge amount of reference materials - of course cloth wouldn't fit their burned image- and I wanted a design right down to the patterns carved into their armour. I really wanted that quality. I also wanted their armour to look like something a normal person couldn't wear, thick, heavy and almost hollow. I'm really happy with the final result, in fact, it really helped us promote the game.
I hadn't expected people to say it looked like a character from Demon's Souls though. That wasn't intentional at all.
Hatsuyama: The fact, they used to be Silver Knights and were transformed when Gwyn linked the flame. I was really happy that players actually noticed. I saw someone saying "this must have happened when they were burned" and I realised they'd got it!
Miyazaki: It's always great to see things like that.
Otsuka: The Mimic was quite different from those in other games, it's certainly the strongest I've ever encountered…
Miyazaki: Yes, the Mimic. I wanted a mimic in the game from the very start, but mimics in other games are all the same, aren't they? The point of the enemy is to surprise people but in doesn't. I love the design but it's just been overused, so I wanted to create a imic that would surprise the player again, to go against their preconceptions… "oh this is a mimic isn't it… wait what!" That was the image I had for the enemy from the very beginning, it was designed out-of-house, but as long as it left a strong impression, it succeeded.
Hatsuyama: It has an interesting way of kicking, doesn't it?
Miyazaki: Yes that actually Super Tiger's rolling sobat. I think I recall saying that Super Tiger's story is one of the greatest ever told, although I suppose that's not really relevant here.
Waragai: How about the tentacled beasts in the Izalith Ruins? When I look at them all I see is Mixer Taitei from Kinnikuman. I think some of the players noticed it too.
Miyazaki: Well, he is one of the few people to ever win against Kinnikuman, isn't he?
Otsuka: So that's why he looks so much like Mixer Taitei?
Miyazaki: No, I'm joking. It wasn't intentional… Although I have no problem with it looking like mixer Taitei. I'm a fan of the series and people seem to enjoy it, too.
Satake: I was responsible for the design. It was actually based on a very old sketch. I was trying to create something strange and unique, like the Great Race of Yath from Lovecraft's mythos, or something with many eyes, on springs. There was a period where I was created a lot of designs around these themes, and it was one of these sketches that formed the basis for this particular design. I'd been wanting to do something with it for a long time now so I'm glad we were able to use it in the game.
Otsuka: Of all the enemies in the game, the ones which scared me the most would have to be the Crow Demons in the Painted World and the Basilisks in the Depths.
Miyazaki: The Crow Demons came about during the initial concept stages. I think the animator did a really incredible job.
Satake: I think they are really at home in the Painted World.
Nakamura: I like to think that they were humans who wanted to fly so badly that they sprouted wings, but rather than their skeletons evolving over time, they instead twisted their limbs into unnatural positions, forcing their bodies into a bird-like shape. That's how I've always imagined them.
Miyazaki: I always thought of the Painted World as a place where things go to escape and the bird men are no different. They were originally designed as worshippers of the Goddess Velka whose bodies were warped by their devotion. I think this obsession makes them really interesting characters.
Satake: In some ways there are very similar to the Gaping Dragon.
Otsuka: How did the Basilisk come about?
Miyazaki: They also came out of the initial concept stages. Although the idea that they could turn people to stone came much later.
Waragai: Yes, it was never designed as a basilisk. It was just one of the many designs created during those initial stages. In the end, we had an out-of-house artist brush up the design.
Miyazaki: The concept images were extremely rough. They're great for getting the design across, but when it comes to building the model and animating it, it doesn't contain nearly enough information, so we had and-out-of house artist complete the design for us. The thing that takes the longest time and needs the most communication is of course the very first image, so having this work done for you is actually a very good method. In his book, I'm sure there are a lot of rough concept images, I think is interesting to compare them to the finished images.
Catarina Armour and Siegmeyer of Catarina
Otsuka: Did you all like fantasy before starting the project?
Everyone: Of course!
Miyazaki: Everyone really loves it. There are a couple of people who also draw mechs, but I think it would be very difficult to work with someone who didn't like fantasy. It would be hard to communicate some of the more fantasy based-ideas.
I don't have that problem with people like Mr. Nakamura or Mr. Satake. I've worked with Mr Nakamura for a long time on both Armoured Core and Demon's Souls, and have always trusted him with the most important designs. I've also worked with Mr. Satake since Armoured Core, and on this project he worked with the out-of-house artists which basically meant he had to translate my abstract directions into something they might understand. I'm very grateful.
Otsuka: There are some really unique weapons and suits of armour, could we speak a little about them? Siegmeyer's armour is one that really stands out.
Miyazaki: The Catarina armour was designed by Mr. Waragai. Long before we started work on the game, in fact, not long after he joined the company we actually asked him to produce a number of designs, not for any specific project but more as a kind of test to help us decide which development team to attach him to. During that period I asked him to produce some fantasy armour, and among his designs there was a large, overweight character like Bazuso from Berserk. It was really distinctive with a spherical, onion shaped helmet and I took to it immediately. Once we started working on Dark Souls and I began to outline Siegmeyer's character and it seemed like a perfect fit so I just used the design as it was.
Otsuka: That's great. So, does it have a special meaning for you since it was one of your first designs?
Waragai: I suppose it does. I've always liked fantasy but it wasn't until I started working on these designs that I really began to think about how the armour was put together. Then I started thinking, "how would you construct armour for someone who was really overweight?" and this design was the result.
Miyazaki: Although Siegmeyer isn't actually fat, it's just his armour. It's the strange little details like this that I really like about it. If there's one thing I regret about the Catarina armour is that I wasn't able to show the helmet opening. It's designed to do that and I have a mental image of Siegmeyer popping it open and hungrily guzzling down some food, I just wasn't able to fit in anywhere in the game. I have to apologise to Mr. Waragai for that.
Otsuka: If you get the camera into just the right position, you can actually see inside Sieglinde's helmet. She's quite a looker, isn't she?
Miyazaki: You did that?! Waragai and the 3D artist he was working with made almost all of the NPC faces.
Waragai: And in pretty short period of time, as I recall.
Miyazaki: In my mind, Sieglinde was always a cute character. I specifically remember asking for that.
Waragai: In the end, she turned out completely different, but at one point you asked me to make her look like Hermione.
Miyazaki: Eh? I said that? Surely I would have asked for Emma Watson. Anyway, I don't think she ended up resembling anyone in particular.
Waragai: You definitely said it. I remember, because I'm also a fan.
Otsuka: Well, for some reason I was certain that a handsome man and beautiful woman would emerge from that armour.
Miyazaki: Fairly early in development I was actually talking about the game abroad, when I blurted out something about her being beautiful. Once I'd done that, I couldn't go back on my word, could I…
Waragai: Although, in the end you never see her face.
Miyazaki: That's Dark Souls in a nutshell. In the end, they lost something of their initial resemblance to Bazuso but I'm very happy with the way the two characters turned out. Siegmeyer's story, including his touching final scene is actually enhanced by the fact that he's wearing that armour, don't you think? … or perhaps that's just me.
In many ways it's the complete opposite of the Catarina armour but the set which best embodies Dark Souls' dark fantasy aesthetic and which was consequently featured on the box art is the Elite Knight armour. Hatsuyama designed it. I actually showed her the knight's armour from Demon's Souls to use as reference and asked her to enhance it by adding features that weren't present in the initial design, such as the surcoat. I really wanted to bring out an air of nobility and refinement. Nakamura designed the knight's armour from Demon's Souls and it was such a great design that it actually gave us trouble when it came to trying to improve it. There were several times where we took it in entirely wrong directions, or when it started to look like an inferior copy, rather than an improvement.
Hatsuyama: I redrew it countless times, didn't I?
Miyazaki: Yes, we struggled at first but I think the final design is great. In fact when I find the armour in-game myself, I can't help but equip it for a while. With the blue surcoat and other additions, I really think it turned into a very cool design.
Wanderer, Hunter, Warrior and Bandit Sets
Otsuka: And what about Mr. Nakamura's designs?
Nakamura: In the early stages, I worked on the equipment for the warrior, the wanderer, the hunter and the bandit classes.
Miyazaki: For the warrior, we wanted to move away from the traditional soldier class seen in Demon's Souls and instead aim for something more like an adventurer. We used relatively simple image words of leather armour with metal plating and I suppose, a little of Parn from Record of Lodoss War…
Nakamura: Yes, he did come up.
Miyazaki: It's not surprising, we're a similar age and both grew up with the series. Also I assumed that players would spend a significant portion of the game using this armour, so we actually paid special attention to the back as it's the part the players will be looking at the majority of the time. It's the same with Armoured Core, we have to ensure that each and every camera angle shows the player some little detail or point of interest. We tried a number of different ideas, but in the end we actually settled on something very close to the initial idea. The final design walks that line between warrior and adventurer so I'm really happy with it.
Nakamura: When I started working on these four designs I decided that I didn't want to just create a standard set of armour and swap parts around. Instead, I aimed to create something that, while not traditional, looks like it could exist. Designs that feel like they are from another world while being entirely plausible.
It was actually a very difficult period of time for me, I was determined to have something substantial before I showed my designs to Mr. Miyazaki, to be able to explain my choices and defend them if needed. I worked on them intensively for a long time before I was finally ready to show them to anyone. In fact, as soon as I received the "OK", I went straight home.
Waragai: Oh yeah, I remember that. The look of relief on your face as you left!
Nakamura: Up until then, I was practically sleeping at the office.
Waragai: I remember your look of satisfaction, as if to say, "I've done it!"
Nakamura: I heard later that Satake and Miyazaki were discussing my designs over ramen and saying how pleased they were.
Satake: Yes, we did.
Miyazaki: Of course I remember too, that was a great moment.
Otsuka: Next is Mr. Satake.
Satake: As far as equipment goes… the Thorn Armour. I remember it didn't start well at all.
Miyazaki: Ah, I was quite rude about the first design that reached me, I apologise. Originally I asked for something like Hydra from Saint Seiya. I like the poignancy of that character, to have gone through such harsh training to earn his holy armour and after all that, his special ability amounts to nothing more than some claws attached to his hands. You would be pretty crestfallen, wouldn't you? We talked like that a lot, but our images for the armour didn't match, so we spent a long time working on it.
Satake: My first design was a huge guy covered in spikes, but that wasn't what you wanted at all, was it?
Miyazaki: The design only began to take shape when we started talking about the trial of the 77 Rings from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. In the first part of the manga there are two characters called Tarkus and Bruford, who, in order to earn their knighthood, have to overcome the trial of the 77 Rings. Each combatant wears a metal ring and the winner takes the loser's, adding it to his own. They have to defeat 77 opponents, but with each victory, the number of rings they are forced to carry increases. It's a really cool idea so we started talking about what it would be like to attach thorns to those rings. The final design was slightly different, but that's where it really started coming together.
Solaire and The Iron Set
Miyazaki: On the other hand, the design for the Iron and Sun Set went extremely smoothly. I really felt like we agreed on the main elements; the large sun symbol and the mismatched, almost hand-made look, so the design emerged remarkably quickly.
Satake: I never expected him to be raising his hands like that when I drew it though.
Miyazaki: Ah, that pose was something I brought over from Demon's Souls, it belonged to a holy man.
Satake: We actually took to calling that his "Power", didn't we.?
Miyazaki: Yes, we did, although I think the 3D artists would have heard that more than the concept artists, or those people in charge of lighting and effects. At first, we tried to explain it saying "you know, the light glows behind him like this", but in the end it was just easier to call it "Power"
That pose actually carries some significance for me: in Demon's Souls that was a holy sign. When I presented the game to the rest of the company, I showed them the pose and one of the higher-ups told me that it just wasn't cool enough. Of course, I told him I'd get rid of it, but I secretly kept it for later… so naturally, with this game, I was determined to use it.
By the time I began thinking about Solaire's character I had already decided that I was going to use it for the Sunlight Warriors covenant. By using it for summons, it doesn't interfere with player action. I remember I actually acted the pose out so the artist could take pictures.
The Darkmoon Knightess, Gwyndolin and the Darkmoon Blades
Waragai: I'd like to ask about the Darkmoon Knightess.
Miyazaki: Her Brass Armour was actually one of the starting sets for a while. Unlike the other classes, I wanted to create something a little more unusual and this was designed as a pagan knight but it was too difficult to balance, so we gave it to the Knightess. However, that initial image remained.
The majority of the people in the Dark Souls world follow the Way of the White or Gwyn and the Sunlight Warriors covenant, but there is another, far more secretive group who follow Gwndolin and the Dark Moon. They have developed in almost complete isolation, so their customs and traditions are also completely different. The Darkmoon Knightess was designed around this idea.
These ideas, the moon and purity also carry with them something feminine, in fact, they obsess over the image of a maiden dancing in front of the moon and strive to capture this beauty. The Brass Armour's appearance and indeed, the appearance of Gwyndolin himself can be attributed to this.
Nakamura: The skirt-like garment he wears on his lower half, for example, represents female menstruation. An interesting thing is that I actually made his head a little bigger than usual. When Mr. Miyazaki saw it, he was delighted, saying that it made him look like a little girl and that I had to keep it.
Waragai: Huh? Haha
Miyazaki: It's not what you think. Haha
Nakamura: To be honest I just made a mistake when I copy-pasted it.
Miyazaki: Yeah, I did say that, didn't I… When I first saw that you'd made his head that size, I thought you were a genius. But the fact that it was just an accident, I was hoping you'd take that to the grave. I'm very happy that our feminine image for the Darkmoon covenant made it into the game intact.
Domhall of Zena and the Avelyn
Nakamura: What about the trickster set?
Otsuka: Domhnall of Zena's equipment, right?
Waragai: Initially, he was conceived as an illusive purveyor of rare objects.
Miyazaki: Yes, a character like that is actually very easy to fit into the game, you can essentially place him anywhere and move him about wherever you want to. Mr. Waragai took care of the design but it wasn't until he added glasses, that the character started to emerge.
Waragai: I agree. There are actually a number of examples of armour with glasses attached to them, so I just used those as a base for the design. At first glance, the character may look eccentric but his armour is actually quite typical of suits worn in central Europe in the late Middle Ages: just a chainmail, a surcoat and leather boots.
Miyazaki: I was adamant that he should be carrying a lot of things. I think Waragai did an admirable job. Even in this world, where money has lost its value, he holds onto these precious objects and carries them along.
Nakamura: Talking of Domhnall, didn't we design a weapon for him, the triple crossbow? I really liked it, it was very unique, especially when compared to the other weapons in the game.
Miyazaki: The triple crossbow, you mean the Avelyn? Unfortunately, I had to move the it to the Duke's Archives.
Otsuka: Avelyn was originally Domhnall's weapon? I really like the name, where did that come from?
Miyazaki: Hmm, I think there was a reason behind it, but I've forgotten… at least that's what I'm going to tell you. I was fully aware when we were designing it, that the detail and complexity of the weapon wouldn't come across in the game but I specifically remember saying that we'll probably make an art book in the future so let's just make it. I'm glad we were able to realise that dream.
Waragai: Make sure you make it really big so as soon as you open the book, BAM! I don't work in that area much myself, but designing weapons looks like a lot of fun. The Avelyn would have to be my favourite, but I also love the design of the Dragonslayer Spear.
Otsuka: That's Ornstein's spear, isn't it?
Nakamura: We talked at length about that, and about how you could pierce through the tough dragon scales.
Miyazaki: There's only so much you can do with a spear, so it can be difficult to design, but once we hit upon the idea of using your body weight, the design emerged pretty quickly.
Nakamura: Yes, the shape of the weapon was based entirely around the idea of stabbing the dragon, and then using all your body's weight to force the spear deeper.
Miyazaki: I like the dragon weapons, especially the Drake Sword and the Moonlight Greatsword, I'm really happy with the way they turned out.
Hataysuma: I'm pretty sure I designed one of those…
Miyazaki: Ah yes, one of the early designs. I thought the Dragonslayer Greatbow looked great and once we added the animation it really came together.
Satake: I'm fond of the Dragon Tooth.
Waragai: Although… I've heard some of the users calling it the "Fried Chicken". They say it looks like you're carrying a giant piece of fossilised chicken.
Miyazaki: …No comment.
Satake: I love the simplicity of the design, there's something really cool about it.
Shield Community Contest and Shields
Otsuka: How about the shields? I know you actually held a contest, so the fans could submit their designs.
Miyazaki: Well, shields are the opposite to spears in terms of design; you have a great deal of room to create something expressive and unique and because of that, we were able to hold this type of user contest. It was a great success actually. The quality was exceptionally high and there were lots of ideas that we simply wouldn't have come up with ourselves. Despite the fact that the contest was only open to Japanese fans, we were overwhelmed with fantastic designs, far more than we could ever hope to put into the game. Designs like the Owl Shield really gave me some trouble, I simply couldn't decide and in the end I forced to leave it out. I regret that we weren't able to use more of the designs, perhaps if we had started the process sooner, we would have been able to, but it just wasn't possible.
I suppose the last thing about the contest is that we didn't really give the entrants any directions. I thought it would be far better to just let the entrants use their own imagination.
Anyway, onto the designs we created in-house, what do you think of them? Personally, I really like the simplicity of the Sunlight Shield.
Waragai: I like the Dragon Crest Shield.
Satake: I like the items that emanate that eerie glow.
Miyazaki: You mean the Crystal Ring Shield? I must admit, I wasn't entirely happy with how that turned out.
Waragai: Perhaps, but I think it's a really great design.
Satake: If you combine it with the Moonlight Greatsword it looks fantastic.
Waragai: Like Ultraman's Ultra Slash, right?!
Miyazaki: That's right! That's exactly how I tried to explain it to the artist, but he had no idea what I was talking about… I really felt the generation gap when that happened.
Armour of Favour
Otsuka: Looking at the equipment and armour from that game as a whole, how do you feel about them?
Miyazaki: Well this is going to get a little abstract, but I really like equipment that shows feeling or emotion. The best example of this would be the Armour of Favour, I mean, armour the only thing you have to depend on when you step onto a battlefield, so I really wanted players to say, "I trust this with my life". Whether it's a sword, shield or armour, I want it to evoke some kind of feeling, and to do that sincerely, be it the devotion of the wearer or the hopes and dreams of the one who made it. I went into all the designs with that in mind and while I wasn't able to get that into every single one of them, I feel I wasn't entirely unsuccessful. Of course, this doesn't just apply to the aesthetics, the game systems must also be constructed around this idea. It's something I always strive for; a theme that carries through everything I do.
Otsuka: So you'd like the players to find a weapon or piece of armour they like and just stick with it?
Miyazaki: I'd be delighted if that were the case! This strays from art design a little, but with the weapon upgrades we made sure that there was one upgrade path that preserves not only the weapon's name, but also the motion and timing. I wanted people to be able to continue to use their favourite weapons so I made this an option.
Dragon Torso Stone
Otsuka: Of course once you've created the art, you have to add the animation. Was there anything that gave you trouble during this stage?
Miyazaki: The way I prefer to work is that once the concept design is finished, I'll always gather together everyone involved with a particular character to talk through all of our ideas and ultimately decide where we want to take it. That means that for each and every character, I get the artist, animator, effect and sound designer, AI planner and programmer and all the concept artists. While there might be some small areas that need work, there was never anything that differed wildly from my initial image.
One animation that I'll always remember is when the play activates the Dragon Torso Stone. I actually acted the motion out for the animators but when they showed me the finished animation, I didn't like it. "He wouldn't move like this" I said, to which they replied, "but this is how you showed us, I'm sure of it", and of course everyone agreed with them. I was a bit embarrassed, but that awkward, jerky motion actually conveys what it would be like if a human was trying to force him or herself to become a dragon, so in the end, after some slight adjustments, I gave it the "OK".
Otsuka: How about the dogs in the Depths? I actually found their movement a little unsettling.
Miyazaki: Yes, they weren't originally supposed to move like that, but just as you say, it gave them a very unsettling quality, so I left it in. If everything goes exactly as you plan, that unsettling element, that disgust is very difficult to create and you end up with a game that doesn't surprise or shock the player. It's very difficult to manufacture so it needs some stimulus, some mistake that you can utilise and turn to your advantage. I suppose in the end, it's all about being receptive to failures as well as successes.
Satake: I'll always remember the Dark Hand's soul drain attack. This was the first thing Mr. Miyazaki tried to explain to me and the first time I found myself on the receiving end of his acting. He was saying "I want it to be like this" while acting out the motion, and of course, I had no idea what he was doing.
Miyazaki: Yes, that can happen, but as I said before, it's really a chance to hear everyone's ideas and get us all thinking on the same wavelength. I like to encourage everyone to contribute their ideas, no matter how trivial because from those some, great ideas will emerge. For example, having characters imprisoned inside a Crystal Golem. The lead artist actually came up with that idea. While we may end up using less that 10% of these ideas I still think it's an important exercise. Of course, we could just say "you go away and think about these 20 enemies", but I prefer coming up with ideas together, having everyone contribute and develop the concept together. Although too many cooks can spoil the broth. Haha.
Satake: We actually used motion capture for the pre rendered movie, but in the sections where it differed from Mr. Miyazaki's image, he would act it out himself. Such as the part where Nito opens his hand, we reshot that many times. Also the part where the maiden takes the fire, originally she just took in in her hand but Miyazaki wanted it to look more like a prayer. We reshot that part many times, too.
Miyazaki: Yes, I wanted her to take it gently as if she was protecting something very important and delicate from being broken. It took a long time to achieve that. No matter how many times we reshot it, it always looked like it was going to break. Actually, right after working through the night on that, I was flying from Haneda to America. I remember someone asking "where are you going to sleep?" and I decided I'd be fine just sleeping on the plane but I wasn't fine at all, it was absolutely awful.
I learned a huge amount from working on Dark Soul's pre-rendered intro. At that point, we were much more experienced working on mech games like Armoured Core and I think that lack of experience with fantasy games hindered us a little but there are things I really like about it. Seath's scene or the part where Nito raises his hands are my favourites, I think they came together really well.
Otsuka: Lastly I'd like to ask about the cover art.
Miyazaki: This was another area that gave us some trouble. Since she designed the Elite Knight Armour, I asked Hatsuyama to design the cover. The cover features the player character and the bonfire but it's the darkness behind the two that is the key to the design. Explaining this darkness was difficult without getting extremely abstract…
Satake: It was really interesting seeing the design develop, at first the knight and the bonfire were arranged very differently, sort of separate from each other, but Nakamura started talking about facing the shadows and how to have the viewer feel the depth of that darkness. Hatsuyama's original design was adjusted again and again, until we were looking form directly behind the character into the darkness. It's actually the opposite of most cover arts, isn't it?
Nakamura: Your proximity to the darkness and the impending sense of dread and anticipation, we tried to capture all that in the design.
Miyazaki: I think that really comes across when you see the art blown up into a poster, although, speaking honestly, as a cover, it does have some problems. I think it comes across as more of a product more than a game, although I do like the image and I was the one who suggested it, so I'm responsible for the way it turned out.
Satake: Yes, I really think Hatsuyama overcame a difficult challenge, taking advice from various people, but at the same time producing something that is all her own.
Miyazaki: Yes I agree, that's something I really like about the image. It's interesting to compare it to the cover art used abroad. I'm sure it's shown somewhere in this book… It's completely different! I just gave them all the materials and took no further part in the design so I was actually really looking forward to seeing the results. I was really surprised. I thought the finished cover looked really cool, especially the cover used for the special edition.
Hatsuyama: When designing our cover, I have to admit, I was at a complete loss as to what to do, I was told I had to "face the darkness inside myself", which didn't really help at all.
Miyazaki: Really? I didn't think I'd say such an abstract thing…
Hatsuyama: It was Satake who told me that, I didn't know how to react.
Satake: Ah yes, I say things like that from time to time, then Mr. Nakamura has to fill in the gaps.
Nakamura: Yes, I'm like a translator, aren't I?
Hatsuyama: But I was really in trouble, I didn't understand what Satake was trying to say.
Miyazaki: Oh, dear Mr. Satake. Haha.
Satake: Thankfully we were able to talk through all those problems…
Hatsuyama: Yes, I feel like a learned a lot while working on Dark Souls.
Miyazaki: It turned out fine in the end.
Hatsuyama: It really did. When I look back on everything we did, I feel a huge sense of achievement.
Miyazaki: In closing, I just want to say that the four artists here and two others not present were the entirety of the concept art team. With only six people, we had to rely on out-of-house artists but their job was mostly just cleaning up our rough images. Almost all of the actual concept design work was done by just this handful of people.
That may surprise some you and we certainly encountered difficulties because the team was so small, but I also believe that there are things that could only be achieved by a small team like this. It was difficult to balance and as artists I'm sure you'd prefer to tighten up your own designs so I'm sorry that you weren't able to.
Nakamura: Not at all, I think you really created an excellent environment to concentrate interesting ideas on.
Miyazaki: I'm glad you don't hold that against me. I truly enjoyed my role in developing the concepts and collaborating together with the artists and working together to shape the designs. I really think that looking at the game as a whole, we were hugely successful.
… Oh, and I'd also like to thank Enterbrain for producing the art book.
Otsuka: Thank you very much.